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Vodhin
05-06-2009, 11:21 PM
(The Search feature is still returning a blank page, sorry if this issue has been addressed, I see no recient threads covering this topic)


Well, folks, I'd release my Flying Chitty but it now suffers from the dreaded "Mysterious Extra Car" syndrome. This isn't a new problem, as several CTR Makers have run into it- I've tried everything I can think of but nothing seems to solve the problem.

If anyone has a solution, please let us all know- I've searched for an answer and tried a variety of modifications (and even Markus ran into this problem once not long ago but didn't have an answer).

In a nutshell, the ride adds an additional car to itself, regardless of how many you choose to have in a train- select 2 and you get 3, select 5 and you get 6. There are several clues that I know of that might help us figure out this problem (if it hasn't been figured out already):

First, the ride does not know how many peeps can ride and reports "Unlimited", which may just be a result of the phantom car, or it might be related to the cause of the phantom car (and I've check all my peep effect points for naming, arrangement, etc...).

http://www.vodhin.org/e107/e107_files/public/1241665652_1_FT0_vodhin_ctr_dblcarerror02.jpg



Second is this message about the station not being long enough for a single car, which seems to indicate that the car length is including the start of the real car (in front) through to the end of the phantom car in the rear.

http://www.vodhin.org/e107/e107_files/public/1241665652_1_FT0_vodhin_ctr_dblcarerror01.jpg



Lighting yields yet another clue as the second, phantom car does not have a working light effect point to shine on the track (nblightstart). This tells me that the game "understands" the presence of the second phantom car and is not treating it as part of a single model (of which all nblightstart effect points work) but as a an actual second car (of which nblightstart effect points are disabled).

http://www.vodhin.org/e107/e107_files/public/1241665652_1_FT0_vodhin_ctr_dblcarerror03.jpg



On one more point: My Hannibal 8 CTR did suffer from this problem, but the problem resolved itself after doing nothing more than making a new set of bahndatten/ wagondatten files for the CTR creator. This, however has not solved the problem for Chitty...


So any ideas any one? does anyone want to try to duplicate this error, try to make it happen? Let me know your thoughts...

CompressedAir
05-07-2009, 02:29 AM
Oooo, Mysterious!

Ckef01
05-07-2009, 10:27 AM
I've serious no idea but I ran in this problem with my articulated bus as well. But since the bus must have 2 wagons (otherwise it'll look ugly.. just trust me..) I don't really suffer from it, I just set the max and min cars per train to 2 (set the link-ish car as middle, so actually I have 3 cars but people experience it as 2, don't know why but I must, otherwise the creator doesn't make a thing).

But this will be very handy to be solved for the future. Maybe set minimum cars per train to 0 :p ?

azanderz
05-07-2009, 12:26 PM
[quote=Vodhin;11191548](The Search feature is still returning a blank page, sorry if this issue has been addressed, I see no recient threads covering this topic)


Well, folks, I'd release my Flying Chitty but it now suffers from the dreaded "Mysterious Extra Car" syndrome. This isn't a new problem, as several CTR Makers have run into it- I've tried everything I can think of but nothing seems to solve the problem.

If anyone has a solution, please let us all know- I've searched for an answer and tried a variety of modifications (and even Markus ran into this problem once not long ago but didn't have an answer).

In a nutshell, the ride adds an additional car to itself, regardless of how many you choose to have in a train- select 2 and you get 3, select 5 and you get 6. There are several clues that I know of that might help us figure out this problem (if it hasn't been figured out already):

First, the ride does not know how many peeps can ride and reports "Unlimited", which may just be a result of the phantom car, or it might be related to the cause of the phantom car (and I've check all my peep effect points for naming, arrangement, etc...).
[/qoute]

The double car problem... All my CTRs does that when i test, and everytime i fix it, sadly i dont know how... Try and delete the bones that you made for carfront and carrear and then place them again.

The peeps problem. are you 1000% sure that you wrote peep01 and not peep1 or peep 01 ? If you did write peep01 and you still get the problem, try deleting the bones and placing them again. Like the other suggestion.

Vodhin
05-08-2009, 07:49 AM
...I ran in this problem with my articulated bus as well. But since the bus must have 2 wagons...I don't really suffer from it, I just set the max and min cars per train to 2 ...But this will be very handy to be solved for the future. Maybe set minimum cars per train to 0 :p ?
Setting the number of cars to 0 (min, max, default- I've tried numerous combinations) does not solve the problem. It also appears that all my CTRs ignore the min, max, and default number of cars anyway- seems those values are not getting into the game...

AAs for your articulated bus- well, if you were having my problem, then you would have 2 front sections and then the rear when you select 2 cars- or you would have 2 front sections alone when you selected only on car... there wouldn't be an way to have just the front and back (and the link car accordian section assuming it's a link car).


... Try and delete the bones that you made for carfront and carrear and then place them again... The peeps problem. are you 1000% sure that you wrote peep01 and not peep1 or peep 01 ? If you did write peep01 and you still get the problem, try deleting the bones and placing them again.

Replacing carfront and carrear bones is something I haven't tried (see- that's why even I need to ask- sometimes we can overlook the simplest things!). The peep bones are correct (checked, rechecked, and checked again): they are exactly the same used in the other two versions of Chitty anyway: all three versions are derived by saving the base CTR bones from a master Chitty model and merging them into the specific version I'm working on- but even then I have replaced the peep bones (and I might have replaced all the others too, in my attempts to fix this problem).

I do know that Capitals vs non-capitals in bone names affects the sorting outcome of the bones (and can render some effect bones non-working if it is capitalized), and now I'm thinking that I did pull a fast one with the light effect point bones: the lightstart bones need to be in order and I have nblightstart and simplelightstart effect bones in the model:



nblightstart01
simplelightstart02
simplelightstart03
etc.


I figured that I could have the lightstarts automatically arranged correctly in the importer by numbering the nb versions ahead of the simple versions and then go from there... The peep bones end up in the middle of the lightstart effect points though:


nblightstart01
peep01
peep02
peep03
peep04
simplelightstart02
simplelightstart03
etc.


Now, I have seen this order in the regular OVLs (looking at them with nothing more than notepad) and thought nothing of them. Now I will go and see if manually sorting the bones into complete groups does anything- wish me luck!


EDIT(Later that day after getting home from work and tinkering a little bit...)

Replacing the peep bones, then the carfront/rear bones, and a few other tiny tweakes to the bahn datten (using new OVL names, changing start options, something else I forget) and wagondatten (default number of cars, max & min car numbers number, OVL/ride naming) Yielded no results.


now for a bit of memory jogging:

the very first time this happened to me I was adding addional Hannibal 8 Version OVLs to the BahnDatten file of my Chitty Race Track ride- I had started with Racing Chitty (no problems), then added Hannibal 8a with the top up and sissor animation (no problems), then added Hannibal 8b with top down and sissor animation (no problems), and then Hannibal 8c without sissor animation (no problems).

The door animation on Hannibal 8c wasn't right (order of animation sequences) so I adjusted the wagondatten and ran everything through the importer/CTR Creator once again. That's when Hannibal 8a and 8b - the other two versions on the same bahndatten- came down with the Mysterious Second Car Syndrome. I reloaded previous saves so everything should have been restored (every change gets a new file name- OVLs, bahn/wagon dattens files) but the problem persisted.

It went away when I removed the 8c version from the bahndatten file, after making some major changes to the 8a and 8b models when Feature Animation became available. These changes were to the animations themselves, the timing of keyframes and animation segment arrangement (the previous incarnations had door/sissor animation set up as door opening/closing events, the new animations have door events and the sissor animation now takes place during the ride- the new Feature animation, er... feature)...

So I am now thinking that it might have something to do with the lenglt of some loop animation- though I don't know why it would have shown up just by adding the third version to the track, and not go away by removing it...

Thatonekid
05-29-2009, 06:29 PM
Vodhin, Ive found that this bug does have to do with the order of the bones in the xml and ovl before the Wagendaten (I solved the problem with my Indy CTR)...

I would try reverting to the last model before the bug appeared and adding bones one by one to the end of the bone lists of each model. Once the error appears, try moving the last bone you added to different positions in the bone list. It worked for me...

Good Luck!!!

Vodhin
06-02-2009, 08:25 PM
Vodhin, Ive found that this bug does have to do with the order of the bones in the xml and ovl before the Wagendaten (I solved the problem with my Indy CTR)...

I would try reverting to the last model before the bug appeared and adding bones one by one to the end of the bone lists of each model. Once the error appears, try moving the last bone you added to different positions in the bone list. It worked for me...

Good Luck!!!

Unfortuneately this bug appeared without any change to the car's OVLs, but when I changed the BahnDatten file to use a different track. Using the original Bahndatten file also now has the extra car, so changing the model, re-ordering bones (and what order should they be? [rhetorical- I don't expect anyone to know]), and a host of other experiments also had no results to remove the extra car.

I think that the mysterious extra car seems related more to something happening in the BahnDatten file, since - I think - it is the creation of the track's OVLs that is going wrong: Something between the car's OVL data (which I think lies in the number of peeps) and the track's OVL data is getting lost... What, how, I cannot be certain.

Thatonekid
06-02-2009, 09:01 PM
Unfortunately this bug appeared without any change to the car's OVLs, but when I changed the BahnDatten file to use a different track. Using the original Bahndatten file also now has the extra car, so changing the model, re-ordering bones (and what order should they be? [rhetorical- I don't expect anyone to know]), and a host of other experiments also had no results to remove the extra car.

I think that the mysterious extra car seems related more to something happening in the BahnDatten file, since - I think - it is the creation of the track's OVLs that is going wrong: Something between the car's OVL data (which I think lies in the number of peeps) and the track's OVL data is getting lost... What, how, I cannot be certain.

You are right, this bug is extremely unpredictable because for you it was caused by change to the bahndaten, for me it was caused by change to the xml/ovl. I think you're right that it has to do with the ovl data getting lost but the peep bones respond correctly (as in position and number) contradicting the unlimited saying that it didnt know they were there. The fact that we have found two different sources of the problem means that it is not caused by a single factor. Once you find what caused your problem (possibly the different track in the bahndaten) we can start narrowing down what causes this.

Vodhin
06-03-2009, 12:32 AM
I don't hink it was caused by different problems, rather I think there may be something in the CTR creator's car-to-track process that is incorrect. Remember, a CTR has three steps: Make the Object (Import and Create OVL), Apply WagonDatten data (Convert the OVL to a NEW OVL for cars), and set up a track set (create NEW OVLs listing track parameters)

You made a new XML > OVL and ran it through the CTR creator to convert the cars- even if you didn't rebuild the track, Step 2 might not be getting done 100% correctly.

I'm not a programmer and can only go by observation of what the results are, and all tests I do seem to point to mis-matched data between the Bahndatten and Wagondatten created OVLs. It could be that something is missing or incorrect in the variables in either text file: something that needs to be the same or match up in some way we don't know yet (like Priority Station and Station type, though I've tried many combinations there).

The thing is that I'm pretty much at a loss and see no changes I can make on my end- not that there are none, but that I know no more that I can try...

Markus Lomberg
06-13-2009, 05:06 PM
I did some investigations:

Please try removing special tracksections (like e.g. LogReverser, TiltSections, CableLift).

Old-Spice
06-13-2009, 07:24 PM
I got this with a Jeep ride I was working on, Not sure if I posted it here or ... But anyway I had not used any of the above ^^. Just used the wild jeep track. I reimported, remade the bandatn or whatever its called, and the car file.

Vodhin
06-14-2009, 10:15 PM
Thank you for your help, Markus. I will try that tonight, using only the simplest track sections and will report back here on my finidings.

Edit: I did notice that the "With Addons" version of track 10 had more pieces that were not listed in alphabetical order, and knowing how RCT3 seems to like that order, I decided to try using sections from the "without add-ons" version. Still the extra car remains.

After finishing up from my 48 hour film project, I'm just too tired to think clearly at the moment, so I will next try just straight, station, and curves and see what happens... Wish me luck...

Old-Spice
06-15-2009, 12:02 AM
Vodhin, as I am far to lazy to get around to it I was wondering if you:

Deleted the exported model, the ctr folders that are in rct3, deleted the ovls, and started over. Like replace all the effect points? export, reimport, remake all the bahndaten and wagon files and reinstall?

At first when i impoted my car, it didnt have the double car, then after a few more imports, It did, how odd it was, I am thinking its something we are doing, afterall this importing of custom cars is new, and it has bugs.

Mind the spelling

veryConfused
06-15-2009, 12:14 AM
I was just going to tell you that the ghost(s) don't want you to finish. ;)

Anyways I hope that you can get the problem fixed. I would try to help, but seeing that I haven't even made a CTR yet I unfortunately cannot do that. Good Luck (with the CTR).

Vodhin
06-16-2009, 10:29 AM
...I was wondering if you:

Deleted the exported model, the ctr folders that are in rct3, deleted the ovls, and started over. Like replace all the effect points? export, reimport, remake
all the bahndaten and wagon files and reinstall?...
Done this many times (delteing all importer and CTR created OVLs each time), and I have re-built the skeleton and re-animated twice. I've also replaced both CTR text files several time, starting from scratch each time.

One thing I haven't tried is adding another car type to the bahndaten file... hmmm.... I still have to try the simple track setup (using only a station, straight and a curve)...



I was just going to tell you that the ghost(s) don't want you to finish. ;) ...

Heh... I might agree, if I lived there... no ghosts in my house (that I've come across, at least :p)